Curse

Aitrus · May 16, 2005, 03:02 AM // 03:02

Is there any reason to be anything besides a W/Mo?

Friends and I have taken to simply referring to W/Mo's as provolones, because of their sheer cheeziness. Why not swiss or gouda? Because they don't sounds quite right for describing this particular type of cheeze.

Reasons to be a W/Mo:

1. Highest Def. in game.
2. Highest dmg in game.
3. Best healing in game.
4. Ability to spam rez.
5. Energy-free adrenaline skills, save your energy for healing while still outputting shitloads of dmg.

Seriously. Is there something I'm not seeing here? I do see that at least 1 in 4 players are W/Mo, if not more. I find that my necro spells are of marginal use in pvp (blood magic anyways), I don't see the point in being Mo primary since it makes you a bullseye with weaker armor and the fun of doing 0-6 dmg a hit with your weapon. Ele with AoE is marginal as people can just move out of it. Mesmer energy drains are nice, but vs W/Mo pointless since he still has enough AC/HP to own you four times over. Rangers might be more viable but it seems like timing the distracting shots and whatnot takes some considerable skill. The other classes can all do cool stuff I know, but it just doesn't seem to compare in any way shape or form to what the W/Mo can do.

To those of you with more experience, please tell me that its just a phase or something and that with more pvp experience the provolones decline in cheeziness, at least to the realm of say... cheddar... even old cheddar.

But ultimately, is there any point to being anything other than W/Mo? Besides hoping that Anet will do something to make the combo less cheezy?

fawgre · May 16, 2005, 03:14 AM // 03:14

1) Empathy
2) Guilt
3) Shatter Enchantment
4) Clumsiness
5) Crippling Anguish
6) Ethereal Burden
7) Illusionary Weaponry
8) Ineptitude
9) Soothing Images....

Nothing is invincible.

goldjas · May 16, 2005, 03:22 AM // 03:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aitrus

Is there any reason to be anything besides a W/Mo?

Friends and I have taken to simply referring to W/Mo's as provolones, because of their sheer cheeziness. Why not swiss or gouda? Because they don't sounds quite right for describing this particular type of cheeze.

Reasons to be a W/Mo:

1. Highest Def. in game.
2. Highest dmg in game.
3. Best healing in game.
4. Ability to spam rez.
5. Energy-free adrenaline skills, save your energy for healing while still outputting shitloads of dmg.

Seriously. Is there something I'm not seeing here? I do see that at least 1 in 4 players are W/Mo, if not more. I find that my necro spells are of marginal use in pvp (blood magic anyways), I don't see the point in being Mo primary since it makes you a bullseye with weaker armor and the fun of doing 0-6 dmg a hit with your weapon. Ele with AoE is marginal as people can just move out of it. Mesmer energy drains are nice, but vs W/Mo pointless since he still has enough AC/HP to own you four times over. Rangers might be more viable but it seems like timing the distracting shots and whatnot takes some considerable skill. The other classes can all do cool stuff I know, but it just doesn't seem to compare in any way shape or form to what the W/Mo can do.

To those of you with more experience, please tell me that its just a phase or something and that with more pvp experience the provolones decline in cheeziness, at least to the realm of say... cheddar... even old cheddar.

But ultimately, is there any point to being anything other than W/Mo? Besides hoping that Anet will do something to make the combo less cheezy?

2 3 and 4 are wrong, (highest damage? Ranger, elementalist, and Mesmer all can and will outdamage us if played right), pure monk far, far, far, far, far, far, far outheals us. We only get 20 Energy, we can hardly spam rez. 1 is arguable, I hear W/Ne can tank pretty damn well. 5 is the same as W/any secondary that uses energy. I'll admit that I play a W/Mo...mostly because I didn't know the game very well, and it just made sense at the time, which is probably why its so popular. Another reason being is because its a Paladin (more or less). Everytime I get hit by hexes I feel the classes weakness like a big slap in the face, its in no way invincible, thats for sure.

Agolk2 · May 16, 2005, 03:22 AM // 03:22

coolest post ever, fawgre

Kershent · May 16, 2005, 05:34 AM // 05:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by fawgre

1) Empathy
2) Guilt
3) Shatter Enchantment
4) Clumsiness
5) Crippling Anguish
6) Ethereal Burden
7) Illusionary Weaponry
8) Ineptitude
9) Soothing Images....

Nothing is invincible.

Quoted for uber-correctness. A Mesmer is greater than anything he wants.

Weezer_Blue · May 16, 2005, 05:51 AM // 05:51

I found Warrior/Monk to be extraordinarily easy to take down with my Ranger/Mesmer. I tested my Fragility Build during the final beta (nothing has changed much since) and I could easily take a W/Mo out in about 5 shots of my shortbow - even if he healed. If there was a monk behind him (which there wasn't, because I take monks out first), then it would take a few more shots, depending on how often he was being healed.

Warrior/Monks can hardly dish out more damage... Infact, to me, they're just giant meat shields. I prefer smiters for tanking, cause they do a lot more damage, and if played right, can last even longer (usually die faster only because people are like "hey! a monk! must be a healer... gettim!").

Warrior/Monks rely on 1 thing to deal damage: being right next to you. Pin em down or use Imagined Burden and murder them while they slowly walk up to you. To stay alive, they use enchantments and perhaps a direct heal hear and there. Strip their enchantments and they're screwed. "What?! No Mending? No Healing Hands? What ever shall I do?!"

horohoro08 · May 16, 2005, 05:53 AM // 05:53

w/mo is not invincible, it can take lots of dmg, and it does do lots of dmg, BUT, a good old poison and life degen or n e thing from a mesmer can mess u up. it cant heal as much as a monk, say a hammer lvl 20 w/mo, it can only have so much attribute points to use, i tried to make pvp hammer w/mo, in the end, it can only have 8 heal, 7 strength, and 12 hammer mastery and 8 points left over to spend on n e thing which wont do jack shit. 8 healing points so that mending can giv 3 life regen, 1 poison, all that 3 is gone, and then a phantasm, so much for staying alive. then damage. w/mo do alot of damage, but i believe elementalists do far more dmg than any other class, the can set u on fire, and shoot out all that other stuff, ur armor wont do u any good against that. 20 energy to spend, the most used skill i see is Mending. mending takes 10 energy and -1 regen, then u hav 10 left over. any elementalist skills i see do about 90 dmg per hit. say u healing breeze that, regen from breeze is WAYY too slow to counter elem spells, and after healing breeze, not enough energy for anything. and elem is still blasting u with his spells, and all u can do is watch ur health being cut down and die. as for adrenaline skills, adrenaline charge fairly slow, especially for hammer users. so he can only do a high dmg hit once in a while. so in conclusion, No. W/Mo is not as godly as u think it is

Aaaaagh · May 16, 2005, 07:30 AM // 07:30

Im playing a w/mo because, as stated previously, its a logical choice for a n00b like myself. Now that I have admitted that, I feel obligated to state that w/mo is anything but invincible. Even with sprint loaded, when people are smart enough to snare me, I become nearly useless. My heals arent good enough to be a real effective back up healer, and even if they were with my 20 engery and >> I wouldnt last long. Take out a warriors legs, and all he(she/it) has left is a small energy pool and a frustrated player.

Aitrus · May 16, 2005, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Let me clarify point 2: highest dmg in game without requiring energy for dps. A warrior just whacking me with his weapon hits harder than anything else courtesy of strength.

Any other class wishing to do damage needs energy to do so. A warrior does not. In fact he can bump his dps with adrenaline as well, also not requiring energy.

Point 3 is actually wrong I realize. A pure monk will get more via divine favour. I was trying to point out that healing breeze / healing hands do a massively better job at healing self than the necro, ranger, mesmer alternatives.

Point 4 I mean simply that he can rez infinite times during a battle (as a monk simply. Other classes either use the signet or don't rez at all). This is a very very important ability in pvp as far as I can tell. Difficult to get off in 4v4 sometimes, but in 8v8 rez power is fundamental to succeeding.

The other day we went into a few 4v4 matchups. In one of those we had 2 warriors and 2 monks. We managed to kill 3/4 of the opposing team. The last guy standing was a W/Mo and we simply could not kill him. I do a whopping 6 dmg with my monk weapon. My friend actually does 0 dmg with his. And our two warriors were kind of stupid but also didnt seem to be pushing out much damage. After 4 minutes of 4v1 being unable to kill a single W/Mo I just left and waited for more clan members to show up to pk with.

Obviously everything has a counter, and every counter has a counter. I say W/Mo is overpowered, you say nuh uh, just bring a mesmer w these 8 skills. Then if I want to be a dumbass too I can just say nuh uh, we bring a guy w x 8 skills and that neutralizes your mesmer making the W/Mo back to full strength.

My point was that it seems like pound for pound the W/Mo has a huge advantage over every other class combo. But as I haven't done a huge amount of pvp yet, I was asking if the W/mo trend of cheeziness (read: high dmg, high armor, healing, rezing, energy-free dps) carries on indefinitely... or if you reach a skill/experience plateau where the W/mo is no longer effective because there are easy techniques and different playstyles that render it less so.

Soul Monarch · May 16, 2005, 03:15 PM // 15:15

I do not consider W/Mo overpowered.

W/Mo is a cookie cutter class that falls into the "easy to play" category. They appear overly powerful because you feel like you are always getting killed by one. (This has more to do with the fact the 50% of players seem to have a W/Mo, not that W/Mo is so good.)

Kerus Tel Veren · May 16, 2005, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Funny, I have an E/N build that *enjoys* being beat on by W/Mos (or W anything really). Ward against Melee, Price of Failure, Armor of Earth, Faintheartedness, Enfeeble, etcetc. I've had multiples 'pounding' on me to the tune of um... 3-5 damage? If they hit :P Generally they stand around wasting their time 'pounding' on the 'squishy' casters while the dangerous party members murder the rest of their team.

Common? Yes. Sturdy? Absolutely. Unbeatable or cheesy? Not even remotely. Because they *are* so common, make allowances for that either in your build (if soloing with pugs), or in your teams build (if playing with your guild/friends).

Aloren · May 16, 2005, 03:27 PM // 15:27

I have to disagree with W/Mo being overpowered. As a W/E I tend to dominate the majority of W/Mo I encounter in PvP. It really depends on the skill of the player and the build they're utilizing to determine how good a character is.

I can generally tie up a W/Mo, firestorm him, make him bleed, gash him, and final thrust. Bye Bye Mr./Mrs. W/Mo....

May 16, 2005, 04:10 PM // 16:10

people are still using mesmer skills to fight off Warriors? People just dont learn

Master Elyas · May 16, 2005, 04:26 PM // 16:26

What would you rather use Blackace? Mesmer skills are the most effective on warriors...

Phaedrus · May 16, 2005, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aitrus

Point 3 is actually wrong I realize. A pure monk will get more via divine favour. I was trying to point out that healing breeze / healing hands do a massively better job at healing self than the necro, ranger, mesmer alternatives.

Point 4 I mean simply that he can rez infinite times during a battle (as a monk simply. Other classes either use the signet or don't rez at all). This is a very very important ability in pvp as far as I can tell. Difficult to get off in 4v4 sometimes, but in 8v8 rez power is fundamental to succeeding.

A W/N not only out-damages a W/Mo but also heals from most necromancy skills he'll equip.

As for resurrections...well, a warrior can resurrect an "infinite" number of times, yes. He still has to stand still while he does it. He still uses the bulk of his slow-regenning energy to do it. If a lone warrior is left to res his team, there shouldn't really be a good reason why he'd stage a complete comeback. One knockdown/slow spell should be enough for an entire team to consume him whole. Using a warrior to ressurect in combat is...well, questionable. Depending on the makeup of your team, you may be losing out a lot on the interrupt/damage-dealing side of things.

W/Mo is a sturdy build, but it's almost purely defensive. Anything with only one side has an inherant weakness you can exploit.

[ ]

elorei · May 16, 2005, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aitrus

Let me clarify point 2: highest dmg in game without requiring energy for dps. A warrior just whacking me with his weapon hits harder than anything else courtesy of strength.

you are free to complain all you want about war/mos.

but please dont just make stupid crap up. strength adds armor penetration TO ATTACK SKILLS ONLY. not plain old melee, read up on it. go test it out, have a friend test it out, whatever.

Epinephrine · May 16, 2005, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Elyas

What would you rather use Blackace? Mesmer skills are the most effective on warriors...

Necromancers are a warrior's nightmare, Mesmer is definitely annoying, but I suspect most Warriors hate necromancers more.

Rahl · May 16, 2005, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Mesmers own if played right, as well as if you have good bow skills to use on him, you can easily deal 100+ damage.

Shinsei · May 16, 2005, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

people are still using mesmer skills to fight off Warriors? People just dont learn

The correct question here is, people are still using heals on W/Mo's?

May 16, 2005, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Elyas

What would you rather use Blackace? Mesmer skills are the most effective on warriors...

no they arent. Necro skills are AoE disruption through hexes and conditions with short cooldowns that actually lower DPS vs single target long recharge hexes. If you play a mesmer built to shutdown Warriors you end up relying on hex stacking which pretty much means you're going to lose vs competent opponents.

Just to run through the earlier quoted list:

Quote:

1) Empathy

One of the worst skills in the game at trying to shutdown a Warrior. It cant hit Warrior trains and it also cant stop them. They get damage per attack but vs a good team thats just not going to cut it. Doesnt stop adrenaline gain,speed or DPS which are the main things you want to hit a Warrior with.

Quote:

2) Guilt

No idea why anyone would want to use this on a Warrior, let alone a War/Mo since it doesnt affect them.

Quote:

3) Shatter Enchantment

Enchantment removal is horrible, but this will get the job done. It's actually decent because self-preserving War/Mo usually cant run more than 2 enchantments(and it's usually mending and HH).Enchantment removal is a topic by itself(because in general it sucks) but this will do vs most War/Mo builds that arent top of the line.

Quote:

4) Clumsiness

It ends after the first disruption. It has potential, but not vs organized teams.The Warrior also gets to pick what and when he is disrupted.

Quote:

5) Crippling Anguish

Theres really no reason to ever waste an elite slot, let alone 1 of your spaces on the skill bar for this p.o.s. Dont ever use it. Ever. You've got much better options.

Quote:

6) Ethereal Burden

It's a snare thats overall better than CA. But Imagined Burden is in the game for mesmers and if you need a snare vs Warriors you'd rather want that. EB nets you energy later though but it's only a net gain of 5 at high spec.

Quote:

7) Illusionary Weaponry

This requires running an IW build. And yes these kind of builds will massacre just about anything 1v1 provided you are left alone and have the support for it. But IW builds get countered by the same spell that screws Warriors and Rangers that mesmers dont have-Shadow of Fear.

Quote:

8) Ineptitude

Another skill that you should never ever use unless there's a really good reason. Blind is very good condition. But not at the expense that this skill is going to bring you.

Quote:

9) Soothing Images....

This skill is one of those toss ups. Can be nice in niche cases but generally has to sit on the bench. Aoe attack speed debuffs lower adrenaline gain also.

Necros have two skills that outdo the entire mesmer line in Warrior shutdown:

Shadow of Fear
Enfeebling Blood

This will put a dent in Warrior trains as you dont have to kill them. Just lower their dps and adrenaline gain w/o devoting an entire character to it, not to mention spammable at that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shinsei

The correct question here is, people are still using heals on W/Mo's?

Most of these people play in the Arena and have no choice. Some play in Tombs and even if they knew how to use bond chaining they probably cant get a PUG team competent enough to make it happen.